juliaserano ([info]juliaserano) wrote,
@ 2008-08-05 11:31:00
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Entry tags:feminism, frustration

Yay, my AlterNet article is out!
I was hoping that it would come out before the end of the week (given that it discusses the MichFest issue, among other issues). It can be found here.

I glanced at the comments, but they made me ill...

-julia




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[info]kathygnome
2008-08-05 06:53 pm UTC (link)
either pitting the supposedly out-of-touch, transphobic lesbian-separatists who run the festival against a more politically progressive transgender minority

I guess the real problem I have is that I can't see any way in which this isn't an accurate description of the corporate ownership of the festival.

Sometimes things really are that simple. I've listened to all the various excuses (socialization, etc) for discrimination and I can't see any point in arguing because I don't believe those making these excuses are any more sincere than the religious hatemongers trying to "protect marriage."

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[info]juliaserano
2008-08-06 05:15 am UTC (link)
hi kathygnome,

i agree that for many it is that simple and that transphobic. but there are a lot of people who attend the festival who see themselves as "pro-trans", and are pro-trans-guy, but merely indifferent (rather than hateful) toward trans women. so there are some grey areas. having said that, as some of the comments to my piece demonstrate, there is definitely some downright trans hatred going on out there...-j.

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[info]moonandserpent
2008-08-05 07:10 pm UTC (link)
Fantastic article.

Frighteningly horrible comments.

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[info]auntysarah
2008-08-05 09:08 pm UTC (link)
Frighteningly horrible comments.

For sure - that's quite some rampant transphobia there.

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[info]changingone77
2008-08-05 07:34 pm UTC (link)
I thought the article was brilliant. The comments are terrifying.

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[info]textualdeviance
2008-08-05 07:39 pm UTC (link)
I'm afraid I couldn't make it all the way through the piece (I'll finish it when I have a bit more mental bandwidth available) but I did want to make a few points:

1. Gender isn't natural. It just isn't. A given gender presentation may be more psychologicially comfortable for a given person, and I generally support the desire to achieve that comfort but...

2. Commodified and sexist femininity are inherently damaging to women. As they are not natural traits, but instead trained in women from birth in order to shape them as proper sexual and domestic servants, they are cages from which women need to escape, not homes to which women should aspire. Thus...

3. It is inherently sexist for transwomen to adopt hyperfeminine, unnatural gender presentation. Regardless of the pleasure or comfort a given woman may feel in such presentation, the net social result of doing so is to reinforce a structure that has historically robbed women of power and autonomy. (This also applies to birth-assigned women as well.)

Extremes of gender presentation are relatively innocuous when presented as theater. Drag is drag, and most people understand it as such. As individual fetishes go, they're also OK. I'm not going to police what gets people off in private. But when those extremes are presented as something natural or essential to a given person (regardless of assigned birth sex), they reinforce the (very incorrect and ultimately oppressive) idea that such extremes are natural for the rest of us, too.

This goes for everyone, too, not just women. I apply the same thing to people who adopt extreme masculinity. As with femininity, cultural ideals of masculinity are specifically developed as tools of sexism. Men are conditioned to accept violence and domination of others as normal and natural so that they may more readily keep women in the servant roles to which they are condemned. And for that reason, hyper-masculine transmen piss me off just as much as hyper-feminine transwomen do. Way to reinforce the social structures that are depriving you, too of basic human rights, doofuses.

For the record, MichFest pisses me off for similar reasons. Essentialism is bullshit whether it's coming from someone who was born with ovaries or not. Any concept that men and women (trans or otherwise) are "naturally" imbued with some sort of gendered behavior is bullshit and has absolutely no basis in science.

That said, it's also true that social conditioning matters, which is why I (sort of) understand the logic behind the transwomen exclusion (though I'm definitely against it.) It's not 100% unreasonable to assume that someone raised male in a sexist society may well still harbor vestiges of that training that may manifest in oppressive behavior. (A common one among the transwomen I've met, for instance, is the tendency to use a louder speaking voice or to interrupt people with whom one is conversing--dominating conversations is something boys are conditioned to do, and because it's so subtle, it's one of the things transwomen often don't realize is still ingrained in them.)

However, I also strenuously object to the idea that women are somehow inherently safe from sexism and oppression when they are exclusively in the company of women who went through socialized girlhood. That socialization includes elements of reinforced sexism and oppression just as much as male socialization does. It just manifests in psychological violence more than physical. I always laugh when women go on about the safety or naturalness of sisterhood. What horse hockey. Women have abused me and reinforced my cultural oppression hundreds of times more than men have.

In short: I generally support the right of all people to pursue a sex and gender identity that is comfortable and proper for them, but I stop short of endorsing the idea of essential gender identities that reinforce sexism and oppression. Extremes of masculinity and femininity aren't just unnatural. but inherently oppressive, and I'm always going to get on the case of anyone--regardless of their chromosomes or current identity--who blindly adopt those extremes without regard for the bigger context in which they exist.

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[info]squigglefish
2008-08-05 08:23 pm UTC (link)
I think you need Julia's book. That answers your three issues, pretty much. I'll leave it to others to discuss this further here.

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[info]textualdeviance
2008-08-05 08:46 pm UTC (link)
I've heard the "empowering femininity" argument before. It's a common one among Gen Y feminists who were raised with the backlash and therefore have convinced themselves that their adherence to commercialized femininity is somehow natural and honorable.

It's also complete horseshit.

Freedom is not slavery. Celebrating the implements of one's oppression is not liberation. An entire generation of women--including transwomen--have swallowed false consciousness without even questioning it, all because they bought into the idea that real feminism is somehow sexless (which it's not.)

Essentialism is nonsense, with no biological basis. And whether that essentialism is coming from the bigoted women at MichFest or young victims of capitalism who insist that they ought to be allowed to prop up the sexist cosmetic and fashion industries doesn't change the ultimate fact of its nonsense.

I don't advocate entirely genderless androgyny, fwiw. I just don't buy the idea that a version of extreme femininity that is--conveniently--situated squarely within a framework of commercialized sexism has anything to do with what women--trans or not--actually are.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]auntysarah, 2008-08-05 09:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lisaquestions, 2008-08-05 09:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lisaquestions, 2008-08-05 09:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fall_of_sophia, 2008-08-06 02:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bestdaywelived, 2008-08-06 05:21 pm UTC

[info]drakyn
2008-08-06 03:39 am UTC (link)
Who said gender identity is always about femininity/masculinity? that's a cissexist stereotype that trans* people have been literally forced into following (and into believing, just like cis* folks).

And now people who happen to fall into the range of whatever you consider "hyper-feminine" or "hyper masculine" need to pretend to like or not like activities and presentations just because you said so?
Riiiight.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

An algorithm of things to say to impress your peers
[info]shemale
2008-08-06 04:31 am UTC (link)
OH HEY GUIZE!

a) I didn't bother to read the article, i don't have the interest mental bandwidth right now. But here are my thoughts anyway!
b) Allow me to disagree with something Serano never actually said about gender being natural!
c) Now let me make an assertion about trans women's gender expression is sexist if it's ~too~ feminine (according to my standards) that was discussed in depth and dismissed in an article--an article in fact that was written with the sole intent of detailing and debunking that shit in mind--i didn't even bother to read!
d) Trans women are especially bad because they try to claim gender roles natural, which i know is a fact and a reality somehow because of my learnings which i have obtained through mystical ways in spite of there having been no one to say such a thing to speak of anywhere in the article or the thread!
e) Trans men suck too!
f) But MichFest is bad so we're totally cool, right?
g) Trans women have vestigial male privilege because i don't like their tone and i can totally, like, feel their ~aura of male socialization~ and therefore i can totally see the logic behind keeping them out of women's spaces like rape shelters, etc!
h) Women's space is stupid!
i) Trans people are extremes of masculinity and femininity, caricatures if you will, and therefore oppress women!
j) Those who accept trans people uncritically are sheeple!
k) ????
l) SUCCESS ALL PEERS ARE NOW IMPRESSED

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: An algorithm of things to say to impress your peers - [info]drakyn, 2008-08-06 04:38 am UTC
Re: An algorithm of things to say to impress your peers - [info]juliaserano, 2008-08-06 05:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrlfriday, 2008-08-06 03:25 pm UTC
Re: An algorithm of things to say to impress your peers - [info]shemale, 2008-08-06 03:37 pm UTC
Re: An algorithm of things to say to impress your peers - [info]lucullean, 2008-08-06 06:07 am UTC
Re: An algorithm of things to say to impress your peers - [info]ibnfirnas, 2008-08-07 08:46 pm UTC

[info]gender_euphoric
2008-08-06 05:01 am UTC (link)
i encourage you to try to read this:http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/transphobic-tropes-3-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Creifying-gender%E2%80%9D/
Do you really, really, really think trans people...invented gender? do you really really really think gender is our problem? do you think we have the actual societal power to enforce and police gender? who do you think has that power...perhaps...cissexual/gender people?

yeah, read that post I linked above. and read back and forth in the questioning transphobia archive. but don't get used to trans people educating you. you are going to have to learn to do it yourself.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]juliaserano, 2008-08-07 05:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lisaquestions, 2008-08-07 03:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]juliaserano, 2008-08-07 04:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lisaquestions, 2008-08-07 04:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lisaquestions, 2008-08-07 04:33 pm UTC

[info]juliaserano
2008-08-06 05:38 am UTC (link)
hi textualdeviance, i would agree with the previous comments that you should read my book (which directly answers all of your questions and comments). but i understand that's a big commitment. so instead, i will encourage you to read but two essays that should answer most of your questions. first - to challenge your assumption that all trans women are hyperfeminine, you should read this: http://www.juliaserano.com/outside.html#skirtchasers .

and with regards to your issues with femininity, you should read a chapter from my book called "putting the feminine back into feminism", which for the next 2 days you can download it here:
http://www.juliaserano.com/av/Serano-Chpt19.pdf

note: i can't keep that text permanently available.

-julia

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[info]bestdaywelived
2008-08-06 05:02 pm UTC (link)
I think that the community could make a bingo card out of the ridiculous shit you've said here.


Way to reinforce the social structures that are depriving you, too of basic human rights, doofuses.

Because, like, the reason that transmen and women are so often the victims of violence and mistreatment is because sometimes they dare to conform to social norms commonly associated with their gender. Right.

I think it goes back to Feminism/Trans101 that the oppressed are not responsible for their own oppression, ever, for any reason, doofus.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shemale, 2008-08-06 05:36 pm UTC

[info]herglacialspeed
2008-08-05 08:13 pm UTC (link)
Good job of trying to articulate this issue as compactly as possible.

Question for you: What do you think it is going to take to change the lesbian/feminist separatist mind?

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[info]juliaserano
2008-08-06 05:58 am UTC (link)
good to hear from you A. & thanx for the nice words! to be honest, i am not sure that those who identify as separatists, or who view lesbian-feminism thru separatist lenses, will ever change their minds. i think any sort of separatism involves giving up on other people who don't fall into the same category of sameness as you. i think separatism has fallen out of favor because people realize that as a strategy, it doesn't really change sexism and/or other forms of oppression...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fall_of_sophia
2008-08-05 08:32 pm UTC (link)
according to one commenter, the purpose of your article was to trash trans men. ze's got you figured out, Serano. this is a transmisandrist plot!

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as an aside
[info]gender_euphoric
2008-08-06 04:48 am UTC (link)
I was literally punching the screen while reading that particular comment. Oh my fellow male-privilege receiving gender-conforming trans men. We R soooooo oppressed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]juliaserano
2008-08-06 06:12 am UTC (link)
oh no, you've coined "transmisandry" - now it will be used to describe trans women who fight for their right to be allowed in women's spaces without considering the negative impact trans woman-inclusion might have on trans men's ability to get laid...

ok, that comment was extraordinarily catty, i'll admit.

to be honest, i have some mixed feelings about that comment. i'm just old enough (40) to have attended transgender groups pre-1995, when trans women & trans feminine folks out numbered trans masculine folks 9-to-1. but now in SF in 2008, most trans & queer women's events have a FTM/MTF ratio of 9-to-1. so either that commenter is someone who is referring to the past (in which case, i totally feel for him) or he's one of those younger trans-guys-in-denial that all of my trans male friends (as well as me) get pissed off at...-j.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]snakey, 2008-08-06 08:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fall_of_sophia, 2008-08-06 03:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snakey, 2008-08-06 04:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]juliaserano, 2008-08-06 04:34 pm UTC
and another thing... - [info]juliaserano, 2008-08-06 04:55 pm UTC
Re: and another thing... - [info]snakey, 2008-08-06 05:14 pm UTC
Re: and another thing... - [info]fall_of_sophia, 2008-08-06 05:20 pm UTC
Re: and another thing... - [info]hazelsteapot, 2008-10-04 03:20 am UTC
Re: and another thing... - [info]fall_of_sophia, 2008-08-06 05:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gender_euphoric, 2008-08-07 12:47 am UTC

[info]alicephilippa
2008-08-05 09:19 pm UTC (link)
A stunning article.

Some of the comments to are frightening in their lack of empathy, and in some cases basic humanity.

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[info]lisaquestions
2008-08-05 09:32 pm UTC (link)
Another element of the exclusion of trans women from women-only spaces and how it reinforces the idea that trans gender identities aren't normal is how they mirror and reinforce the language used to justify killing us. Those who support women-only spaces that exclude trans women are supporting the system that labels trans women as disposable, as natural victims, as "asking for it" when we're killed.

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[info]stemonkey26
2008-08-06 12:20 am UTC (link)
Perhaps more importantly, this is about us being able to have a voice within feminism more generally. MWMF is not only the world's largest annual women-only event, but historically it's been a focal point for dialogues and debates on a wide range of feminist issues. As someone who has experienced firsthand the substantial difference between what it's like to be treated as a woman and as a man, and who now experiences both misogyny and trans-misogyny in my day-to-day life, I have found feminism to be an indispensable foundation for me to make sense of my experiences and to articulate the obstacles and issues that I face. For many of us who are trans women, this is about having a voice in a movement that is incommensurably vital to us.

Not only is the movement vital to many trans women, but trans women are an incredibly vital component of the movement. Thank you for using your voice.

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[info]juliaserano
2008-08-06 05:19 am UTC (link)
so this comment is just to thanks all of the folks who offered nice words about the piece! i appreciate it!

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[info]snakey
2008-08-06 08:54 am UTC (link)
Oh, I didn't know you had a livejournal! I was linked to the piece yesterday, and really liked it, and have now been pointed at your lj. *friends you*

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[info]bestdaywelived
2008-08-06 05:29 pm UTC (link)
After reading that, I'm definitely going to pick up your book. It's an awesome article, and I learned a lot from you.

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[info]tngsquill
2008-08-12 06:53 pm UTC (link)
Julia, once again -- you nailed it in this article. But, in doing so you revealed the hypocritical fly in the ointment of lesbian-feminists. Yeah, they are going to get upset and leave horrid little comments where they wax vitrolic, but that is always the way with movements that struggle to gain rights and equality -- they start to realize that we are all interconnected and that we are only all as free as those who are the most oppressed. When they start to realize that our similarities are more important then our differences and that all our voices can best be heard when we harmonize... it is uncomfortable for them. I never fail to find a ironic humour in those who claim to be oppressed victims who leap at the chance to oppress and victimize others.
Keep up the good work Julia -- it is always good to know that we have a voice as clear and strong as yours.
F.

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